Elizabeth Caroline Penfold née Lucas (c.1851 - 1924):

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Names: 

Elizabeth Caroline Lucas (ECL), mother of Frank Penfold, who (Frank) was father of Gwen Penfold.Archer.


Dates:     

Her husband, Robert Penfold’s date of birth is shown in WPFT as ‘c.1850’, and date of death as ‘c.1945’, and it adds ‘aged 95’. I believe ECL did not live so long, but may well have been born at very much the same date. I am currently (14.6.07) trying to find her birth certificate, and have one on order for the year 1851, which may be correct.

I have searched through about 750 records in Ancestry to find her death date, but without success so far. I have no date information whatever to go on. Maybe there is some in Raymond’s book.(pba.21.6.07). Yes, it shows a date of death of 20.01.1924.(pba.20.12.07).

Birth certificate data:

  1. Registration district: St.George the Martyr, Southwark, 1851 birth in the sub-district of London Road, Southwark, in the County of Surrey;
  2. No. 100; When and where born: 23rd May 1851, 26 Pitt Street, St.George’s Road, (Southwark);
  3. Name, if any: Elizabeth Caroline; Sex: girl;
  4. Name and surname of father: John Lucas;
  5. Occupation of father: Engine Driver;
  6. Signature, description and residence of informant: X The Mark of Caroline Lucas; Mother; 26 Pitt Street, St.George’s Road, Southwark;
  7. When registered: 20th June 1851, A.Radford, Registrar;


    c.f.: Robert Penfold’s birth certificate: (not his actually): 


  1. Application No. COL 119 309;
  2. Registration district: Reigate;
  3. 1856;
  4. Birth in the sub-district of Reigate, in the county of Surrey;
  5. No. (can’t read the serial No.);
  6. When and where born: ‘Eighth February 1856, Walton-on-the-Hill’; (this means that it’s wrong,  I now think, because the censuses below clearly show that he was born in Glastonbury. Which seems odd, actually, anyway. This all needs investigation.pba.21.6.07).
  7. Name, if any: Robert;
  8. Sex: Boy;
  9. Name and surname of father: William Penfold;
  10. Name, surname, and maiden surname of mother: Ann Penfold, formerly Letts;
  11. Occupation of father: Bricklayer;
  12. Signature, description and residence of  informant: ‘(X) The mark of Jane Letts. Present at birth’;
  13. When registered: ‘Fourth March 1856’;
  14. Signature of registrar: William Kendall (might be, can’t really read it), Registrar;
  15. Certified etc etc..... 25.4.2007.



Parents:

Father: The marriage certificate to Robert Penfold shows her father as ‘John Lucas’, having the profession of ‘engine driver’. I am keen to follow up on this in the sense of firmly tracking him down and perhaps even finding where he was employed. For the moment, I am hoping that the birth certificate for ECL will be correct and will give me more firm data on her parents, and their home address, so that I can pursue these lines of enquiry. The birth certificate for ECL shows her father was indeed an ‘Engine driver’ even ... (sentence unfinished:pba.20.12.07)

Mother: Now (20.12.07) believe that her mother was probably the ‘Caroline Dealing’ mentioned in RFWP’s book ‘Memories... etc’ as dying on 12.2.1885 – though he shows her as the mother of William Wells. This is because one ‘EC Penfold’ is cited on her death certificate as ‘daughter’ and informant concerning the death – presumably this is ‘Elizabeth Caroline Lucas’ herself, aged 34 in 1885, and being, then, Mrs Penfold since 5.12.74. Presumably also, ECL’s mother re-married following the death of John Lucas, to a man named Dealing. See separate cv of Caroline Dealing.


Siblings: 

None shown on WPFT.

Education:      

Not yet known.


Married: 

Robert Penfold. See marriage and birth certificate data. It seems clear to me from the census data of 1871, when ECL was  working in Reigate as a servant in the household of a coachbuilder, one William Holland, that ECL is very likely to have met Robert Penfold through this employment, as he also lived in Reigate. 

The WPFT shows that they had five children (see below). The WPFT also says that (in the context of Robert and his wife being strict baptists), that she was ‘afraid to die’, and that the Lucas family is believed to have a Jewish connection.

Census Data re Lucas Family:

1851 Census: (probably wrong. ECL’s father was ‘John’ according to ECL’s marriage certificate, not William):

  1. Parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark;
  2. No. 13 Layton’s Grove;
  3. William Lucas, head of family, married, age 23, Farrier, born London St. Andrew’s;
  4. Elizabeth Lucas, married, age 21, born Norwich;
  5. Elizabeth Lucas, daughter, born London ‘H’born’(?);
  6. Mary Ann Lucas, daughter, age 1 month, born Southwark, St. George;

1861 Census:

Elizabeth Lucas, age 9, is ‘daughter-in-law’ (step-daughter?) at Groves Road, Reigate, the home of Robert and Caroline Dealing – so apparently her father died/left home between 1851 and 1854, and her mother re-married to Robert Dealing, an agricultural labourer living in Reigate, and half-brothers/sisters were born in 1855/8/9/61:

  1. Groves Road, Reigate ‘Foreign’;
  2. Robert Dealing, head, married, Agricultural Labourer, age 30 (the Ancestry transcription says), but it could well be 50 from the actual squiggle, born Kent (possibly Tonbridge also indicated by a ditto sign, but that seems not clear to me), England;
  3. Caroline Dealing, wife, married, age 42, Agricultural Labourer’s wife, born Reigate, Surrey;
  4. John Dealing, son, age 5 (so born approx 1855), scholar, born Reigate, Surrey;
  5. Robert Dealing, son, age 3 (so born approx 1858), scholar, born Reigate, Surrey;
  6. Eliza Dealing, daughter, age 2 (so born approx 1859), scholar (ditto sign), born Reigate, Surrey;
  7. Sarah Ann Dealing, daughter, age 1 month (so born 1861), born Reigate, Surrey;
  8. Elizabeth Lucas, daughter-in-law, age 9, Scholar, born Southwark;

1871 Census:

Elizabeth Lucas, age 19, is in-service in Reigate Foreign, as a general domestic servant in the home of William Holland, coachbuilder:

  1. Civil parish of Reigate Foreign, municipal borough of Reigate, 
  2. Road or street or name of house: ‘Warwicks (something – might be ‘Road’ but doesn’t really look like it);
  3. William Holland, head of house, married (I suppose it must be, but doesn’t really look like it), age 53, Coachbuilder in London, born (can’t read it – may be Hertfordshire);
  4. Elizabeth Holland, wife, married, age 49, born Westminster;
  5. Elizabeth (might be ‘C. Elizabeth’, hard to say because the ‘Elizabeth is a ‘ditto’ sign below the ‘Elizabeth’ of Mrs Holland, and the ‘C’ is hard to decipher) Lucas, servant, unmarried, age 19, general servant domestic (difficult to decipher – see enlarged portion of this census saved separately), born London;
  6. So (pba, 9.6.07): Elizabeth Lucas was a general domestic servant in the home of William Holland, coachbuilder, of Reigate. And that location of her work was very probably how she came to meet Robert Penfold of Reigate;
  7. And (pba, 9.6.07) if Elizabeth Caroline Lucas was 19 in 1871, then she was born in about 1852. Could have been 1851 if her birthday was after the month/week/day of the census date in 1871, which presumably was the case;


Marriage to Robert Penfold in December 1874, at Reigate Parish Church: (Marriage Certificate): (this is the one clearly-established case of a member of the family being an engine-driver!): ‘Certified copy of an entry of marriage’: Robert Penfold and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas;


  1. 1874; Marriage solemnized at: The Parish Church in the Parish of Reigate, in the county of Surrey; No. 251;
  2. When married: December 5th (could be 15th), 1874;
  3. Name and surname: Robert Penfold and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas;
  4. Age: ‘full age’ (in both cases);
  5. Condition: Bachelor and Spinster;
  6. Rank or profession: Engine Cleaner, and blank;
  7. Residence at time of marriage: Groves Road, Reigate (in both cases);
  8. Father’s Name and Surname: William Penfold, and John Lucas;
  9. Rank or  profession of Father: ‘Labourer’ (looks like, but not very clear), and: Engine Driver;
  10. Married in the Parish Church, according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church, .... after Banns.... by me John M. Harrison (looks like), Vicar;
  11. This marriage was solemnized between us: Robert Penfold, and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, in the presence of us: ‘Robert Dealing his (X) mark’, and Mary Jane Lucas;
  12. Certified to be a true copy... 25.4.2007. 

(pba.5.5.07.ends.).



1881 Census:

Elizabeth Penfold, age 29, is married to Robert Penfold and living (‘over the shop’ presumably) at Thelpole Coffee Tavern, Reigate:

  1. Municipal borough of Reigate (followed by a word I can’t read. Looks like: ‘Frieful’, perhaps it is ‘Reigate Foreign’);
  2. Borough of Reigate, Eastern Ward;
  3. Urban district of Reigate, Ecclesiastical district of St. Matthews;
  4. No. of schedule: 202;
  5. No. or name of house: ‘Thelpole Coffee Tavern’. This establishment was apparently in the same street as ‘Lorne Villas’ which are the addresses of adjacent properties;
  6. Robert Penfold, married, age 28, coffee tavern proprietor, born Somersetshire;
  7. Elizabeth Caroline Penfold, age 29, coffee tavern propriet(ress), born: S. Lambeth;
  8. Frank Penfold, son, age 5, born Surrey, Nutfield;
  9. Caroline Penfold, daughter, age 3, born Surrey (looks like) ‘Kirsthill’;
  10. Ellen Kenward, servant, unmarried, age 17, general servant – domestic, born: Sussex;
  11. So, 7 years after they married in 1874, they have have a son, Frank age 5, and a daughter, Caroline, age3, and have their own business apparently, a coffee tavern, and a servant aged 17, so it seems that they are ‘doing all right’ quite quickly;
  12. Apparently during those 7 years from 1874 to 1881 they may have lived at Nutfield (just outside Reigate) and elsewhere before moving into Reigate proper;

1891 Census: 

Elizabeth Penfold, age 39 and husband Robert (now an insurance agent) have moved to Doods Road, Reigate, and have (at home on the night of the census) 3 sons and a daughter, ages 15, 7, 4 (the sons); and 10:

1. No.11 Doods Road, Reigate (Foreign), Surrey;

2. Robert Penfold, head, married, age 37, insurance agent; employed, born Somersetshire, Glastonbury, Somersetshire;

3. Elizabeth C Penfold, wife, married, age 38, born Middlesex, London; 

4. Frank, son, age 15 (so born approx 1876), single, auctioneer’s clerk, born Surrey, Nutfield;

5. Caroline Penfold, daughter, age 10 (so born approx 1881), scholar, born Surrey, Redhill;

6. Robert Penfold, son, age 7 (so born approx 1884), scholar, born Surrey, Redhill;

7. Herbert Penfold, son, age 4 (so born approx 1887), scholar, born Surrey, Redhill;

1901 Census:

Elizabeth Penfold, age 49 and husband Robert (still an insurance agent) have moved to Yorke Road, Reigate, and now have another daughter, Rosalind, born approx 1895:

1. 40 York Road, Reigate, Surrey;

2. Robert Penfold, head, married, age 48, insurance agent, worker, born Glastonbury, Somerset;

3. Elizabeth Penfold, wife, married, age 49, born London, Southwark;

4. Frank Penfold, son, single, age 25, estate agent’s clerk, born Surrey, Nutfield;

5. Robert Penfold, son, single, age 17, corn merchant’s clerk; born Surrey, Redhill;

6. Herbert Penfold, son, age 14, born Surrey, Redhill;

7. Rosalind Penfold, daughter, age 6 (so born approx 1895), born Surrey, Reigate;

8. So the Penfolds’ children were born approx: 1876 (Frank), 1881 (Caroline), 1884 (Robert); 1887 (Herbert); and 1895 (Rosalind); so there were 19 years between Frank and Rosalind.


1911 Census:

Elizabeth Penfold, age 59 and husband Robert (still an insurance agent) have moved to Deerings Road, Reigate, and their elder daughter Caroline, age 30, is still unmarried and (unless she marries and leaves home) is in danger of becoming her mother’s ‘carer’, as Gwen said she was when Gwen visited in 1917:


  1. 24 Deerings Road, Reigate, Surrey;
  2. Robert Penfold, head, married, years  married: 36, male,  age 58, insurance agent;
  3. Elizabeth Caroline Penfold, wife, married (number of years is blank), female, age 59, no occupation shown;
  4. Caroline Penfold, daughter, single, female, age 30, milliner;
  5. Rosalind, daughter, single, female, age 16, shorthand-typist;
  6. (pba: 25.6.2010): so this is where, probably, Gwen Penfold.Archer and her brother Vincent went, in about 1917, during WW1 at the height of the bombing (see “a quote from Gwen’s last tape….” Below) and they found that their grandmother had taken to her bed, and perhaps never got up again;


Marriage to Robert Penfold in December 1874, at Reigate Parish Church: (Marriage Certificate): (this is the one clearly-established case of a member of the family being an engine-driver!): ‘Certified copy of an entry of marriage’: Robert Penfold and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas;


  1. 1874; Marriage solemnized at: The Parish Church in the Parish of Reigate, in the county of Surrey; No. 251;
  2. When married: December 5th (could be 15th), 1874;
  3. Name and surname: Robert Penfold and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas;
  4. Age: ‘full age’ (in both cases);
  5. Condition: Bachelor and Spinster;
  6. Rank or profession: Engine Cleaner, and blank;
  7. Residence at time of marriage: Groves Road, Reigate (in both cases);
  8. Father’s Name and Surname: William Penfold, and John Lucas;
  9. Rank or  profession of Father: ‘Labourer’ (looks like, but not very clear), and: Engine Driver;
  10. Married in the Parish Church, according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church, .... after Banns.... by me John M. Harrison (looks like), Vicar;
  11. This marriage was solemnized between us: Robert Penfold, and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, in the presence of us: ‘Robert Dealing his (X) mark’, and Mary Jane Lucas;
  12. Certified to be a true copy... 25.4.2007.


(pba.5.5.07.ends.).



Children: 

Frank, born 1875, died 1959, aged 84, who married Rosa (Rose) Wells, and had children Vincent, Gwendolen, and Raymond;

Carrie, a milliner. No dates shown in the WPFT. Did not marry;

Bob, who Bob emigrated to New Zealand. No dates shown in the WPFT. It also says that, of the five children of Robert Penfold and his wife (nee Lucas), only Frank married. This is now known (through Helen Archer.Bowler’s research in New Zealand) to be not strictly correct, in that Bob married someone with a (to pba) Maori-sounding name; 

Bert, estate agent. No dates shown in the WPFT. Like Carrie and Roz, Bert did not marry.

‘Roz’ (presumably Rosalind), born 1895, died 1981, aged about 86, who, like Carrie and Bert, did not marry, and was an inland revenue accountant.


Occupation:  

  In the 1850s and probably in the nineteenth century generally, women didn’t have ‘occupations’. They were mothers and daughters. As regards her husband, Robert Penfold, the WPFT says: “He had a modest job as insurance collector with The Prudential”.c.f. his son Frank’s father-in-law, William Wells  (junior), who was a horticulturalist with nurseries at Merstham;

However, within 7 years of marrying in 1874, ie in 1881, the Penfolds are the proprietors of a ‘coffee tavern’ (Thelpole Coffee Tavern) in ‘Lorne Villas’, Reigate, with two children  (ages 5 and 3) and a servant aged 17. 



Lived:      

ECL’s birth certificate shows that she was born at 26 Pitt Street, Southwark, London, on 23.5.1851, presumably during or just before the Great Exhibition at the Crystal Palace. This address is quoted on the birth certificate as: ‘Pitt Street, St.George’s Road, Southwark’. Pitt Street seems not to have survived, but St.George’s Road has, and extends from Westminster Bridge Road to the Elephant and Castle – see accompanying maps. Am planning to get a ‘Cassini’ 19th century map of south London, in the hope of finding Pitt Street.(pba.21.6.07).

(24.8.2010): Visited Lambeth/Southwark (this is slightly nearer to Lambeth than Southwark, at least as shown in the London A-Z) on 19 and 20.8.2010 to find out more about where ECL lived. It is now clear to me that Pitt Street was renamed “Oswin Street” at some date before 1929 (see London County Council’s “Names of Streets and Places” 1929 edition: see 2 places: a) for the fact of renaming, and b) elsewhere for the 2 names themselves – copies not made because the book was ‘too delicate’ to put on the copier. I visited Oswin Street and took photos. I was delighted to find that ‘original-looking’ solid and tall Victorian terraced houses are still there. Sadly, No.26 is no longer there because the houses are on one side only of the  street (the side of the odd numbers). I took a series of photos (to be appended to this cv in due course) including cloe-up views of Nos. 23 and 25 (as being ‘close’ to No.26) – but in fact perusal of the  numbering of Oswin/Pitt Street on one of several copies of old maps of these streets, made at the library at Borough High Street showed that it was Nos.13/15 which were actually opposite No.26 when it existed. Anyway, the end result of my ‘investigation’ was that ECL was born in a sreet of good solid, well-constructed (not least because they have survived until now) Victorian terraced houses, in Lambeth/Southwark. Whether John Lucas, engine driver (perhaps on the London Chatham and Dover Railway, that ran through the nearby Elephan & Castle station), and his wife Caroline, rented (most likely, I suppose) or otherwise their rooms or part of the terrace, it was clearly never a slum – not least because in those days the houses would have been comparatively new. So ECL was not born into poverty or squalor such as doubtless existed quite nearby in the Southwark/Lambeth districts of London in those days. She was born into the home of an engine driver – which meant someone who had risen through the ranks of the railway staff to be rewarded with being in charge of an embodiment of the cutting-edge technology of the day – viz: steam power in its latest embodiment. (24.8.2010).

Nothing shown in WPFT about where Robert  Penfold and his wife lived. 

Robert Penfold (junior, ie ‘Uncle Bob’ who emigrated to NZ)’s death certificate however clearly states: ‘Where born: Redhill, Surrey, England’. So, that, at least can be a starting point for searches in censuses for the family.

Marriage certificate shows that they were both living at ‘Groves Road, Reigate’ at the time of the wedding in 1874.

Likewise, the 1881 census (the first for these Penfolds as a married couple) shows:
a) Frank Penfold, age 5, born at ‘Nutfield’. So they were presumably living at Nutfield in 1876;
b) Caroline Penfold, daughter, age 3, born Surrey (looks like) ‘Kirsthill’. So, they must presumably have then moved so that two years later in 1878 they were living at ‘Kirsthill’ (can’t find in map index);
c)



A quote (about Elizabeth Lucas.Penfold) from “Gwen’s last tape of  family questions answered”:

“Gwen: Oh yes. He couldn’t understand how I could marry um, a Methodist. Oh yes that didn’t go at all well with him! He... (laughs) ... he thought the Methodists were very largely successful trades-people! (Edward laughs) That was his ... um. Oh yes, he had no ... sympathy much with um... well no church-people at all. Really. And it was said .... I will say this now. That ... the ....sort of ... baptist theory was so strong in his mother, that she was so afraid to die ... I don’t know what baptists ... think. But she was so afraid to die that once she knew she had some heart trouble ... (she was said to have ‘valvular heart disease’) that I never saw her but in bed, as a little girl. I can smell the Valerian mixture that she took now. In her bedroom. And I never saw her dressed. 

Edward: That was Frank’s mother?

Gwen: My father’s mother. 

Edward: Your ‘Gran’.

Gwen: Yes. And my aunt had to give up her career as a milliner. 

Edward: Aunt who?

Gwen: Carrie. Aunt Caroline.  ... to look after this mother. And she was in bed for years. And I think she just gradually .. petered out. I remember it so well because during a very bad part of the air raids in World War I, Vincent and I were sent down to them for about a week. Oh and I can (laughs) remember how ..  How depressed I was. I hated it!

Edward: And that was... you were quite young? 

Gwen: Oh yes. Only about 8. Something like that. (pba: so that was in about 1917, and Gwen  thus saw her Penfold grandmother, only ever in bed. And her Wells grandmother, Mary Ann Hamilton.Wells had died (in 1884) about 25 years before Gwen was born);


Other biographical details:

Photographs of Robert Penfold at one or two family events exist.

The WPFT comments, the comment being written across and above both of the names of  Robert Penfold and his wife: “narrow-minded, strict baptists, she, afraid to die.” It adds: “He had a modest job as insurance collector with The Prudential”.

Sources of this data:

‘Wells/Penfold Family Tree (‘WPFT’), ‘Mk II’ by REA/GMA, which is marked: ‘Put together in Summer 2000 by R.Edward Archer from information supplied by Gwen Archer, nee Penfold.


1901 Census:

Robert and Elizabeth Caroline Penfold living at Yorke Road, Reigate with sons Frank, Robert and Herbert and daughter Rosalind:


  1. Municipal Borough of Reigate, Surrey; North West ward; Address: 40 Yorke Road; 
  2. Robert Penfold, married, head of family, age 48, insurance agent, worker, born 'Somersetshire, Glastonbury'; 
  3. Elizabeth Penfold, married, wife, born London, Southwark; 
  4. Frank Penfold, son, single, 25, estate agent's clerk, born Surrey, Nutfield; 
  5. Robert Penfold, son, single, 17, corn merchant's clerk, born Surrey, Redhill; 
  6. Herbert  Penfold, son, born Surrey, Redhill; 
  7. Rosalind Penfold, daughter, age 6, born Surrey, Reigate; 
  8. Next door neighbours: at No. 42: family name Smith: head of house 'bricklayer's labourer', daughter: 'apprentice to tailoring'; 
  9. Other occupations noted in the same street: 'housemaid domestic', 'watchmaker jobber', 'baker journeyman', postman, gardener, dressmaker;



1911 Census:
Robert and Elizabeth Penfold living at Deerings Road, Reigate with daughters Rosalind (Roz) and Caroline, 3-years before WW1 broke out: 

  1. 24 Deerings Road, Reigate, Surrey;
  2. Robert Penfold, Head, Married 36 years, age 58, Male, Insurance Agent, born Somersetshire;
  3. Elizabeth Caroline Penfold, Wife, Married, Age 59, Born London;
  4. Caroline Penfold, daughter, single, Female, age 30, Milliner, Born Redhill;
  5. Rosalind Penfold, daughter, single, Female, age 16, Shorthand Typist, Born Reigate;
  6. See maps, including ‘Street View’ (for 24.8.2010) of Deerings Road, Reigate;
  7. So, Robert and Caroline (as perhaps she preferred to be called, as her eldest daughter was so-named) Penfold were living in a nice part of Reigate, and their grandchildren, Vincent and Gwendolen Penfold (son and daughter of their son Frank, married in 1902-ish to Rosa, the youngest daughter of local Chrysanthemum-grower William Wells of Merstham) were aged about 4 and 2 years in 1911 and living some distance away from Reigate, but were (as recalled by Gwen many years later) to visit their grandparents in about 1917, when Gwen’s ‘Grandma Penfold’ had ‘taken to her bed’ on account of ‘valvular heart disease’ – see transcription of Gwen’s recording, and Caroline Penfold (age 30 in 1911 and thus about 36 in 1917) had to give-up her job as a milliner, to look after her mother;
  8. It would be easy (for me) to be critical of someone who ‘took to their bed’ for the reasons implied by Gwen in her tape-recorded reminiscences and knowingly caused her unmarried daughter to have to give up work in the prime of her life and at a time (the 1910s/20s) when women’s lives were still very circumscribed (in terms of what life offered them under the norms of conduct in England), and work or marriage were probably the only ways out of the (potentially) narrow way of life adopted by this strict-baptist family. But, as Ruth said yesterday, perhaps Caroline Penfold was happy to give up the boring work as a milliner and to devote her life to her mother. Yes indeed. Perhaps so. We do not know. And unless a diary or some other window into Caroline’s life opens up, which now seems most unlikely, we shall never know. No doubt ‘Aunty Roz’ (Caroline’s 14-years-younger sister) whom Gwen Penfold.Archer knew quite well, and could have said, had she been asked – but I’m not aware that she was. Maybe there are some clues elsewhere in Gwen’s reminiscences. I shall have to look out. (pba.24.8.2010). 

Dates of entry of data: 

06 and 07.12.06; 28.1.07 (census data); 24.8.2010;



qaa© Philip B Archer 2014