John Lucas (1818-1853), engine driver and father of Elizabeth Caroline Lucas:

Curriculum Vita:

The Enigmatic John Lucas (1818 – 1853): 

A Southwark lad who married a Reigate lass, had five children (including my great grandmother Elizabeth), worked as a sawyer, brewer’s servant, brewer, agricultural labourer, and engine driver, and apparently died in his middle thirties – though where and how, I have not yet managed to discover.

(pba/13.9.2008): Here is the famous ‘Lucas’ connection in our family – the alleged origin of the references to ‘strict baptist’ religion and the Penfold family’s inclination not to marry – Frank Penfold, my grandfather, was the only one of the 5 children of Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, to marry, and neither that marriage, nor those of Frank’s three children were apparently particularly happy. So, John Lucas is a source of great interest to me, but he has been difficult to track down, and disappears off the on-line records in his thirties, and I cannot find his death certificate and wonder whether he emigrated or enlisted as soldier and was killed abroad.


Names: 

John Lucas. 

No other names mentioned in censuses. 

His wife, Caroline, seems to have had four surnames during her life: (i) her birth name, (ii) her stepfather’s name, (iii) her first married name, (iv) her second married name; she remarried to Robert Dealing, labourer, in 1854, and had a second family;

John Lucas died in about 1851/3 (but I’m having great difficulty in finding his death certificate); and 


Dates:     

Born about 1818, according to censuses. Birth certificate not straightforwardly available because this is before the national record system began. Need to investigate parish records in St George’s, Southwark.

Died in his thirties, according to the censuses and his wife’s second marriage certificate, where she is described as a widow.

So, my best present information on his dates is: 1817/8 to 1853/5. 


John Lucas: life Chronicle:

  1. Born in Southwark, St. George’s (according to the censuses), in about 1818;
  2. (Age: approx 20) First child, George John Lucas, born 18.12.1838 in ‘Reigate Boro’, father John Lucas, brewer, mother Caroline Lucas, formerly Smith; (15.3.2008 – still not absolutely sure if this is her);
  3. (Age: approx 20) Married: 9th June, 1839, at ‘The church in the Parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark, in the county of Surrey, married to Caroline Smith, age 21, (so born approx 1818). He is described as bachelor, sawyer, Residing at: Union Street (presumably Southwark – understood), Father’s name: James Lucas, sawyer;
  4. (Age: approx 22) Second child: Emily Lucas born 2nd March 1841 in ‘Reigate Boro’, father: John Lucas, farm labourer, who signs with a cross, mother Caroline Lucas, formerly Smith;
  5. (Age: approx 22) 1841 census: married to Caroline Lucas age 25 (should be 23 to be consistent with age 21 in marriage certificate two years earlier), and residing at Castle Steps, Market Place, Reigate; household also including: Caroline Lucas (herself), age 20 born in Surrey, George Lucas, age 2, born in Surrey, and Emily Lucas, age 3 months, born in Surrey;
  6. (Age: approx 27) Third child born circa 1846: Richard Lucas, (age 5 in 1851 census), born approximately 1846 in Middlesex, (?)Kingsland – perhaps during a visit away from home? (birth certificate of Henry Richard Lucas: 1845, St. Luke’s etc ordered with checking 21.3.08);
  7. (Age: approx 31) Fourth child born circa 1850: Jane Lucas (noted in 1851 census); (birth certificate of Mary Jane Lucas: 1850, St. George’s Southwark etc ordered with checking 21.3.08);
  8. (Age: approx 32) 1851 census: (30.3.1851): family living at 26 Pitt Street, London Road, Southwark St. George, including John and Caroline, George their son, age 12, milk boy, Richard their second son, age 5, born Middlesex, Jane their daughter, age 1, born Surrey, St. Georges;
  9. (Age: approx 32) Fifth child born 23.5.1851: Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, (mother of Frank Penfold) born Surrey, Southwark;
  10. (Age: between 33 and 36) John Lucas dies/emigrates (cannot find his death certificate);
  11. (Age: approx 35) Second marriage of his wife Caroline: September 24th 1854, at St. John’s Church, Reigate, Surrey, to Robert Dealing, labourer, residing at the time of marriage at Warwick Inn, father’s name: Robert Dealing; father’s profession: labourer;


19th Century Current Events:

  1. (From internet timeline): (1813): Parishes have to record baptisms, marriages, and burials in books and forms; so, could investigate the death of John Lucas in this way, and the marriage to John Lucas at the “The church in the Parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark, in the county of Surrey”;
  2. She was born at the height of the British Empire in about 1819, right at the end of  the reign of George III, and 1819 was the year in which Victoria herself was born. So she lived during the reigns of:
    a) George III (reigned 1760 – 1820, during the French Revolution and the American War of Independence);
    b) George IV (reigned 1820 – 1830);
    c) William IV (reigned 1830 – 1837);
    d) Victoria (reigned 1837 – 1901);
  3. Her daughter (PBA’s great grandmother) was born in 1851, the year of The Great Exhibition at The Crystal Palace in Hyde Park;
  4. She was aged 10 in 1829, the year of the Rainhill Trials for the Manchester and Liverpool Railway, at which The Rocket ran out the undeniable winner. This led to the transformation of the whole country’s transport system from the speed of horse transport on muddy and rutted roads, and from the speed of the canal barge, to passenger and goods trains running (by the end of the century at up to 100 miles per hour);
  5. To quote from the Guardian on Saturday 19.01.2008: “When Victoria ascended the throne in 1837” (when Caroline was 18) “London was already the largest metropolis in the world with a population of nearly 2 million, but most of her subjects were still country-dwellers. By the end of the century” (15 years after Caroline died) “London had grown sixfold and 80% of Britons lived in towns or cities.”;
  6. To continue the quote from the above article in the Guardian: “In large part the story of 19th century  England is the story of the city. Early Victorian cities struggled to manage themselves with a public infra-structure that had changed little since Elizabethan times. There was no regular income tax. The government’s role in matters of sanitation, water supply or public health was barely recognised. While 15% of all children could expect to die before their first birthday, urban children were far worse off than their country cousins. Figures published in The Lancet in 1843 showed  that the life expectancy of a labourer in rural Rutland  was 38, while in Liverpool it was just 15.”;
  7. Crimean War 1853 – 1856: possibility, I suppose, that John Lucas enlisted and died in service. This is just the time that he died, as seems likely to be the case from the fact of his disappearance from the censuses after 1851, and the reference to Caroline being a widow on her marriage certificate to Robert Dealing in 1854. Likewise it is also a possibility that he joined the enormous surge of emigration to parts of the British Empire, including north America and the Carribean. Difficult to investigate. He does seem to have had quite a number of different jobs (sawyer, labourer, brewer’s assistant, brewer, engine driver), so possibly life was hard enough for him to be reduced to contemplating the extreme measure of joining the army or emigrating to make some sort of living – as was happening to other people at the same time. In the case of a single man emigrating it is clear (from the accounts given in Niall Fergusson’s ‘Empire’) that in some cases he would go out (say to the United States) with the idea of making a start and making enough money for his wife and children to join him later (if he survived);
  8. “In the hot summer of 1858, the stench from the Thames was so bad that Members of Parliament fled from the rooms adjacent to the river and Benjamin Disraeli rushed from the debating chamber, handkerchief to nose. The press called the crisis The Great Stink. Disraeli introduced to Parliament a Bill which gave Bazalgette the authority to construct the intercepting sewers which he had designed but which had been held up by government bureaucrats. The Great Stink concentrated MPs' minds wonderfully. The Bill passed into law within sixteen days and Bazalgette began work immediately.” (See “The Great Stink” – notes in Caroline Dealing’s file).
  9. So John Lucas lived in hard times, and his origin in London’s Southwark placed him in one of London’s less salubrious neighbourhoods. See Simon Schama’s history of Great Britain for a detailed account of the economic background to the first half of the 19th century, including the Peterloo Massacre and other indicators of the difficulties faced by the working population – which  probably explains why John Lucas seems to have changed his job so many times during  his relatively short life;

Parents:

From his marriage 9th June, 1839, at ‘The church in the Parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark, in the county of Surrey; to Caroline Smith, his father is James Lucas, sawyer, living at Southwark, I presume. So far I have been unable to find this James Lucas in the 1841 and subsequent censuses. Of course, he may not have been living then. He does not sign as a witness.

I have found no information yet about his mother. Possibly the family lived in Southwark, St. George’s, Surrey, but I have made no progress finding the rest of the family.


Siblings: 

Nothing yet known. Censuses are the usual sources of this information in the 19th century, but John Lucas was married already at the time of the first census in 1841.




Children:

  1. George John Lucas, born 18.12.1838 in ‘Reigate Boro’, father John Lucas, brewer, mother Caroline Lucas, formerly Smith, who uses an X as her mark on the birth certificate, which is dated ‘Month of January 1839’
  2. Emily who is aged 3 months and living in Reigate in the census of 1841, but does not appear in the 1851 census, and I cannot find her anywhere else in that census, but I could look further. Child mortality was incredibly high in the mid-19th century. Emily’s birth certificate shows:
    (a) born 2nd March 1841 in ‘Reigate Boro’;
    (b) father: John Lucas, farm labourer, who signs with a cross;
    (c) mother Caroline Lucas, formerly Smith;
  3. Richard Lucas, age 5 in 1851 census, born Middlesex, (?)Kingsland; (nothing known about this location. A birth in an unknown such location could arise from mere travelling of the mother while  pregnant); 
  4. Jane Lucas, daughter, age 1 in the 1851 census, born Surrey, St. Georges ie the location where the family was then living; and 
  5. Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, also born in Surrey, Southwark, on 23.5.1851 – pba’s great great grandmother and last child of the first marriage;
    So, there were 5 children in the first marriage

Education:      

Not known. Amended to here.25.3.08.


Question of the chain of consistency between censuses and certificates: 

  1. For a long time, the only evidence of the existence of John Lucas was the surname ‘Lucas’ of Elizabeth Caroline Lucas (ECL) my (pba’s) great-grandmother, and the reference to him on ECL’s marriage certificate. He just didn’t seem to turn up in census data. 
  2. However, I persisted and found him at last in the 1851 census (see details below). 
  3. It now seems clear that the census data (including John Lucas’s presence in it) must be right. 
  4. Why do I say this? Answer: Because so many of the facts in the censuses hang together. To re-recite them here would be laborious. 
  5. But starting from the censuses involving an undoubted member of the family, Elizabeth Caroline Lucas (ECL) and her husband Robert Penfold, who was Frank Penfold’s father, one can work backwards: 

    1. ECL’s marriage certificate of 1874 (to Robert Penfold – undoubtedly correct) shows her father as an ‘engine driver’;  
    2. This profession is likewise shown on her birth certificate of 1851 and which also mentions her place of birth as 26 Pitt Street, St. George’s Road, St. George the Martyr, Southwark, Surrey; 
    3. this latter address (and other facts) connect that birth certificate with the 1851 census data (which quotes that same exact address) and includes John Lucas, age 34, born ‘Kent, Kingsdown’ and of profession ‘brewer’s servant’ (cf the Archer’s connection with brewing); so 
    4. this gets us to the 1841 census, where the main confirmatory items apart from the parents’ names and ages (near enough to be satisfactory), is the presence in 1841 of George Lucas age 2 in Reigate, and in 1851 of George Lucas, born in ‘Surrey, Reigate’, age 12, milk-boy, not to mention the Southwark connection; (note: 6.3.08: birth certificates of George and Emily ordered today – perhaps they will help to confirm the data on the marriage certificate of 1839 about the groom’s profession and the bride’s maiden name;
    5. 13.3.08: Yes, today I got the birth certificate of ‘George John Lucas’ (see data entered above in relation to ‘Children of first marriage’) and it is significant that George John’s mother is identified as ‘Caroline Lucas, formerly Smith’, which ties-in with the second marriage (of 1854 to Robert Dealing) certificate which identifies her father as Richard Smith (no profession indicated). John Lucas’s profession in GJL’s birth certificate is “Brewer”,  which is consistent with the 1851 census etc. Emily’s birth certificate is the same as GJL’s in these respects but gives John Lucas’s profession as ‘Farm Labourer’ which is consistent with the family having moved from Southwark to Reigate after the wedding in Southwark;
    6. It might well have been that, as George John Lucas the first child of the first marriage was born on18.12.1838, a full 6 months (less 9 days) before the marriage on 9.6.1839 in London, Southwark, Caroline sought, in view of the sensitivities and moral rectitude which was the outward attitude of people at the time, to distance this ‘out of wedlock’ child from the marriage – hence the birth registration in Reigate and the marriage in Southwark, and the use (if it was the case) of her father and step-father’s names on the certificates of the birth and the marriage;
    7. It is also a matter of consistency between the 1839 birth certificate for George John Lucas and the 1851 census, that John Lucas is identified as ‘brewer’ and ‘brewer’s servant’ respectively;
    8. BUT (14.3.08) it appears that I have no chain or link of consistency at all connecting to the 1839 marriage certificate giving the name Davis as the bride’s previous name. Need to investigate this; Got to here amending Caroline’s  cv 26.3.08.


Marriages (of his wife Caroline):

Searches for marriage certificates, and the question of the chain of consistency between censuses and certificates: 

  1. Apparently married twice; 
  2. First marriage was to John Lucas, engine driver, who appears as such in his daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas’s birth and marriage certificates (but he was apparently long dead by the time of her marriage). 
  3. Elizabeth Caroline may have been the last child of this first marriage. She was born about three months after the 1851 census which shows (see below) the family comprising: husband John (34), born in Kingsdown, Kent, and wife Caroline (31), Lucas, born in Reigate, plus children George (12), Richard (5) and Jane (1) Lucas. 
  4. So, if these children were born in the usual way, starting soon after the marriage, then they were married about 13 years before 1851, in 1838. 
  5. Searching for her first marriage certificate: on the basis of a) her dates of 1819 to 1885; and b) the date of her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas (ECL)’s birth (23.5.1851) I decided that I needed to search back from Dec 1850 for a marriage in Reigate (believe Caroline XXX came from there) or Southwark (where ECL was born) of John Lucas to Caroline XXXX (didn’t know her maiden-name). At first I covered: 1852 (a possibility at Oct: Lambeth: vol:1d p.442) /51/50/49/ 48/47/46/45/ 44/43/42/41/ 40/39/38/37 without finding anything to order;
  6. Second marriage was to Robert Dealing, general labourer. There were several children of this marriage – see census data below. 
  7. Elizabeth Caroline Lucas is shown in the 1861 census as a 9-year-old ‘daughter-in-law’ and ‘scholar’. The family comprises: Robert Dealing (30), agricultural labourer, Caroline Dealing (42), plus children John (5), Robert (3), Elizabeth (2) and Sarah Ann (1 month), all born in Reigate. Again, if this family follows the usual pattern then Caroline and Robert were married about 6 years before 1861, in 1855. Must find this second marriage certificate. Have at last found it in 1854.
  8. So, still searching for the first marriage certificate (though I may have been searching for the wrong places for the marriage, I suppose), I will now see what I can find further in the censuses, searching first in 1841 for John Lucas:
    a) 1841 census/ West London Union Workhouse: John Lucas on Sunday: 6.6.1841, age 21, inmate - labourer; born in same county;
    b) 1841 census/St.Martin.in.the.fields. West-minster/Adel(aide?)Terrace: John Lucas, age 20, born in same county; (no other info) location unlikely, age may/may not be right;
    c) got it, I think: 1851 Census (30.3.1851): Pitt Street, London Road, Southwark St. George:
    (i) John Lucas, head, married, age 34, brewer’s servant, born Kent, Kingsdown (just a little round the coast from Dover – pba); (so born approx 1817 – pba);
    (ii) Caroline Lucas, wife, married, age 31, born Surrey, Reigate;
    (iii) George Lucas, son, age 12, milk boy, born Surrey, Reigate; (so born approx 1851 – 12 = 1839, so married, say, 1837 to 39 Reigate; (should have been found in above search);
    (iv) Richard Lucas, son, age 5, born Middlesex, (?)Kingsland;
    (v) Jane Lucas, daughter, age 1, born Surrey, St. Georges; and (obviously not mentioned):
    (vi) Due to be born on 23.5.1851: Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, to be born Surrey, Southwark;
    (vi) Sarah Jacobs, servant, age 12, general servant, born Surrey, Croydon;
    (vii) Comment: that all sounds reasonably consistent with the expected ages/names/family locations;

Marriage certificate – first marriage, in 1839, to John Lucas:

  1. 9th June, 1839, at ‘The church in the Parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark, in the county of Surrey;
  2. Name and surname: John Lucas, age 21, (so born approx 1818) bachelor, Sawyer, Residing at: Union Street (presumably Southwark – understood), Father’s name: James Lucas, Sawyer;
  3. Name and surname: Eliza C. Davis (not previously aware of any connection with that family name), age 19, (so born approx 1820) spinster, also residing (ditto sign) at Union Street (presumably Southwark – understood); father’s name and surname: Thomas Davis, Profession: Baker;
  4. Married in the Parish Church according to the rites and ceremonies of the Established Church by Banns, by me, (cannot read name, Minister);
  5. Witnesses: Richard Davis and Sarah Davis;
  6. Comments: (i) Q: Why would the bride (if she came from Reigate as the censuses later say) be married in the groom’s church many miles away in Southwark? A: Because that could well be where she’s living and working, and perhaps has been so for a good many years. And perhaps because she was doing so, she met her husband there. (ii) No reference to the work of ‘Sawyer’ elsewhere in this family, but perhaps sawyer was John Lucas’s first profession/trade/work – following his father, and he went on to do other possibly more promising things, such as  working on the very new and rapidly-growing railway network; ; (iii) Some details in the above data are confirmatory: (a) the names John Lucas and Caroline; (b) and their ages  are approximately right; (c) the name ‘Davis’ is not actually confirmatory but could be Caroline’s true (birth) father’s name, and likewise his  profession or work being ‘baker’ -  he might have died when she was very young or much more recently; (iv) I have ordered three death certificates for John Lucas and perhaps one of these will be clearly right and may include something which will tie-up with some of the above (pba:23.1.08). Sadly, no, they don’t. I haven’t yet (28.2.08) found John Lucas’s death certificate. I’ve got several clearly wrong ones. 


Census dates: (per Nick Barratt’s ‘Encyclopedia of Genealogy’):

  1. Sunday 6 June 1841;
  2. Sunday 30 March 1851;
  3. Sunday 7 April 1861;
  4. Sunday 2 April 1871;
  5. Sunday 3 April 1881;
  6. Sunday 5 April 1891; and 
  7. Sunday 31 March 1901;


Census Data re Lucas Family:

1841 Census, at Reigate, married to John Lucas:

1. (Census data): Castle Steps, Market Place, Reigate:

a) inconsistent with place of marriage at Southwark, if the reason for marrying in Southwark was that Caroline was living/working there (and perhaps had met John Lucas there for these reasons);
b) consistent with Caroline’s origins (in Reigate) and her later life there). Would they have gone to live in the bride’s town within 2 years of marriage where the groom’s family live? Well, I suppose there are no particular reasons why not. (New) work location would presumably be the main factor;

2. (Census data): John Lucas, age 25 (should be 23 to be consistent with age 21 in marriage certificate two years earlier, but there are often small such errors at these times), labourer (should be ‘sawyer’ to be consistent with marriage certificate two years earlier, but as they’ve moved to Reigate it is much more likely that John Lucas would be doing rural work such as agricultural labouring), born in same county; (should be Kent to be consistent with 1851 census below which has him born in Kingsdown, Kent);

3. Caroline Lucas, age 20 (should be 21 to be consistent with marriage certificate two years earlier – but near enough), born in same county;

4. George Lucas, age 2, born in same county (consistent); (birth certificate of George ordered 6.3.08 with reference-checking included. The records show a birth under the name ‘George John’ (which might well be correct in view of the father’s name being John) Jan/Feb/Mar 1839. This would be an early check on the later marriage/census data and may help with Caroline’s maiden name). 

5. Emily Lucas, age 3 months, born in same county. NB: Emily does not appear in the 1851 census, and there is a longish gap of 7 years between George (born in Reigate in approx 1839) and his brother Richard (born in Middlesex in approx 1846). Of course Emily may have been away from home, aged 10, in 1851, but she may alternatively have died. She is not there in the Dealing household in the 1861 census with her sister Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, aged 9, (pba’s great-grandmother) – but that’s not surprising since she would by then have been aged 20 and most likely to have been out ‘in service’ as her sister Elizabeth Caroline was, 10 years later, in 1871; (birth certificate of Emily ordered 6.3.08 with reference-checking included. The records show a birth under that name in June 1841. This would be an early check on the marriage/census data here).

6. All in all, then, there is not enough inconsistency here to say that this census information is definitely wrong, and much of it seems reasonable enough to accept; (this section OK).

1851 Census, married to John Lucas: (30.3.1851): 26 Pitt Street, London Road, Southwark St. George (inconsistent with Reigate location in 1841 census 10 years earlier, but consistent with John Lucas’s origins), and anyway, they might well move back to Southwark again for work or many other reasons;
(i) John Lucas, head, married, age 34, brewer’s servant, born Kent, Kingsdown (just a little round the coast from Dover – pba); (inconsistent with 1841 census, which indicate birth in Surrey);
(ii) Caroline Lucas, wife, married, age 31, born Surrey, Reigate; (so year of birth approx 1820);
(iii) George Lucas, son, age 12, milk boy, born Surrey, Reigate; (NB: fits with the family being in Reigate in 1841);
(iv) Richard Lucas, son, age 5, born Middlesex, (?)Kingsland; (nothing known about this location. A birth in an unknown such location could arise from mere travelling of the mother while  pregnant);
(v) Jane Lucas, daughter, age 1, born Surrey, St. Georges; and (obviously not mentioned):
(vi) Due to be born on 23.5.1851: Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, to be born Surrey, Southwark;
(vi) Sarah Jacobs, servant, age 12, general servant, born Surrey, Croydon; (this section checked and seems OK 28.2.08).


Birth in Southwark in 1851 of her daughter, Elizabeth Caroline Lucas:

  1. Registration district: St.George the Martyr, Southwark, 1851 birth in the sub-district of London Road, Southwark, in the County of Surrey, (this was when Caroline Lucas.Dealing was about 32;
  2. When and where born: 23rd May 1851, 26 Pitt Street, St.George’s Road, (Southwark); (NB: This precise address gives a very important and exact and undeniable link with the 26 Pitt Street address in the 1851 census – see above);
  3. Name, if any: Elizabeth Caroline; Sex: girl;
  4. Name and surname of father: John Lucas;
  5. Occupation of father: Engine Driver. (So, [pba] in May 1851 (on his daughter’s birth certificate) he was an ‘engine driver’ but, on 30.3.1851 (in the 1851 census) he was a ‘brewer’s servant’ – see below);
  6. Signature, description and residence of informant: X The Mark of Caroline Lucas; Mother; 26 Pitt Street, St.George’s Road, Southwark; 
  7. When registered: 20th June 1851, A.Radford, Registrar; (this section checked and seems OK 28.2.08).


Marriage certificate: second marriage, in 1854, to Robert Dealing:

  1. September 24th 1854, at St. John’s Church, Reigate, Surrey;
  2. Robert Dealing , of full age, labourer, residing at the time of marriage at Warwick Inn, father’s name: Robert Dealing, father’s profession: labourer; and 
  3. Caroline Lucas, of full age, widow, residing at the time of marriage at Warwick Inn; father’s name and surname: Richard Smith, no profession indicated -  should be Thomas Davis, baker, according to the first marriage certificate of 1839 – but this could be Caroline Lucas’s father or step-father (of whom she quoted the other one in her first marriage); so (could possibly see if can sort this out in the censuses from 1841 onwards ie find Thomas Davis, baker ... no, this is so fraught with difficulties and most unlikely to yield anything conclusive as to be unworthwhile);
  4. Married in the church of St. John according to the rites and ceremonies of the established church after banns, by me, H.Samuel Gray, curate;
  5. This marriage was solemnized between us: Robert Dealing: X His Mark; Caroline Lucas: X Her Mark; 
  6. In the presence of Henry George ‘Thript’ (it looks like), and James (could be Harris); (this section checked and seems OK 28.2.08).

1861 Census, married to Robert Dealing:

  1. Grove Road, Reigate;
  2. Robert Dealing, head, married, age 30, agricultural labourer, born (can’t really read it – looks like ‘Thanet’ with just a squiggle after it for the name of the town. Need to find it on his birth/death/marriage certificates or other censuses);
  3. Caroline Dealing, wife, age 42, occupation: wife, born Surrey, Reigate;
  4. John Dealing, son, age 5, scholar, born Surrey, Reigate; so Elizabeth Lucas’s first husband, John Lucas must have either died or left her at the latest by 1855; have searched deaths index 1854/3 for the death of John Lucas of (erroneously, I now think) Reigate – she came back to Reigate after he died/left because it was her home town, but they probably lived in Southwark or somewhere like that in London (pba.22.12.07). Will search again accordingly. Have now (29.12.07) found death in Jul/Aug/Sep 1853 for Southwark.St.Olave in name John Lucas. There are also the otherwise identical facts for Southwark, St.George (the correct district for their residence) in 1847 – but that cannot be him since ECL was born in 1851. So it has to be 1853 and his wife re-married the year-after-next (1855). So will order the ‘Southwark, St. Olave death certificate and search for the wedding to Robert Dealing in 1855. Don’t know why the location is Southwark St. Olave and not St. George, but that difference may not amount to much, with many possible explanations.  
  5. Robert Dealing, son, age 3, born Surrey, Reigate;
  6. Elizabeth and Sarah Ann Dealing, both daughters, ages 2 years and 1 month, both born Surrey, Reigate; and 
  7. Elizabeth Lucas, daughter-in-law, age 9, scholar, born Southwark; (NB: this is a solid point of reference. This must, surely, be the right Elizabeth Lucas, and therefore the right mother, and therefore the right family, so the above censuses are correct and it is only the marriage certificate for John Lucas that seems doubtful.
  8. Comment: so, by 1861 Elizabeth Lucas’s father is either dead or has otherwise left the  home and his wife, Caroline, has re-married to Robert Dealing, agricultural labourer, and has a whole new family of 2 sons and 2 daughters ages 5 to 1 month, plus his step-daughter Elizabeth Lucas, and is living in Reigate, the place of her birth. This is apparently why the family went to Reigate, and why Elizabeth Lucas subsequently worked (see 1871 census below) as a domestic servant in Reigate, and thus met Robert Penfold there, rather than getting into domestic service which, by chance, was in Reigate. Need to find where Robert Penfold was living before he met Elizabeth Lucas – ie check him in the 1871 census. Perhaps that has been done. (this section checked and seems OK 29.2.08).


1871 Census: (married to Robert Dealing):

  1. Grove House, Grove (something else – can’t read it), Reigate Foreign, Reigate, Surrey;
  2. Robert Dealing, head, married (doesn’t really look like it, but must be), age 39, born Tunbridge Wells, (doesn’t look like Kent, but must be);
  3. Caroline Dealing, wife, age 51, born Reigate, Surrey;
  4. John Dealing, son, age 15, born Reigate, Surrey;
  5. Eliza Dealing, daughter, age 13, scholar, born Reigate, Surrey;
  6. Mary A. Lucas, daughter, unmarried, age 21, kitchen maid, born London;

1871 Census: (daughter Elizabeth Caroline in service in Reigate):

  1. Civil parish of Reigate Foreign, municipal borough of Reigate;
  2. Road or street or name of house: ‘Warwicks (something – might be ‘Road’ but doesn’t really look like it);
  3. William Holland, head of house, married (I suppose it must be, but doesn’t really look like it), age 53, Coachbuilder in London, born (can’t read it – may be Hertfordshire);
  4. Elizabeth Holland, wife, married, age 49, born Westminster;
  5. Elizabeth (might be ‘C. Elizabeth’, hard to say because the ‘Elizabeth is a ‘ditto’ sign below the ‘Elizabeth’ of Mrs Holland, and the ‘C’ is hard to decipher) Lucas, servant, unmarried, age 19, general servant domestic (difficult to decipher – see enlarged portion of this census saved separately), born London;
  6. So (pba, 9.6.07): Elizabeth Lucas was a general domestic servant in the home of William Holland, coachbuilder, of Reigate. And that location of her work was very probably how she came to meet Robert Penfold of Reigate;
  7. And (pba, 9.6.07) if Elizabeth Caroline Lucas was 19 in 1871, then she was born in about 1852. Could have been 1851 if her birthday was after the month/week/day of the census date in 1871, which presumably was the case;

1881 Census (with Robert Dealing in Reigate Foreign): 

  1. Brighton Road, Reigate Foreign, Surrey;
  2. Robert Dealing, head, married, age 49, General Packer, born Tunbridge Wells, Kent;
  3. Caroline Dealing, wife, married, age 62, born Surrey, Reigate;
  4. John Dealing, son, unmarried, age 25, gardener, born Surrey, Reigate;
  5. Robert W. Dealing, son, unmarried, age 24 (? not clear), plasterer, born Surrey, Reigate;
  6. Eliza Dealing, daughter, unmarried, age 22, coffee shop keeper, born Surrey, Reigate; NB: this coffee shop keeper reference may be significant in terms of consistency with the coffee tavern business that this daughter’s half-sister goes into with her husband Robert Penfold – see below;
  7. Mary Jane Lucas, step-daughter, unmarried, age 31, coffee shop keeper, born Southwark;

1881 Census (re her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas):

1881 Census data transcribed;

Robert Penfold:


  1. Municipal borough of Reigate Foreign, Borough of Reigate, Eastern Ward; Urban district of Reigate, Ecclesiastical district of St. Matthews;
  2. No. or name of house: ‘Thelpole Coffee Tavern’. This establishment was apparently in the same street as ‘Lorne Villas’ which are the addresses of adjacent properties; (can’t find Lorne Villas on the 1896 map, but need to look longer.pba.2.1.08);
  3. Robert Penfold, married, age 28, coffee tavern proprietor, born Somersetshire;
  4. Elizabeth Caroline Penfold, age 29, coffee tavern propriet(ress), born: S. Lambeth;
  5. Frank Penfold, son, age 5, born Surrey, Nutfield;
  6. Caroline Penfold, daughter, age 3, born Surrey (looks like) ‘Kirsthill’;
  7. Ellen Kenward, servant, unmarried, age 17, general servant – domestic, born: Sussex;


1891 Census (Robert Dealing on his own):

  1. Reigate, Eastern; Warwick Road (could be, but equally might be anything);
  2. J. Newman (could be), head, married, age 30, painter, employed, born Surrey, Redhill;
  3. Eliza Newman, wife, married, age 39, born Surrey, Redhill;
  4. John Newman, son, age 4, scholar, born ditto;
  5. J. Charles Newman, son, age 2 (?), born ditto;
  6. Caroline, daughter, age 4 months, born ditto;
  7. Robert Dealing, father-in-law, age 59, labourer, employed, born Kent, Lower Green (Tunbridge Wells);
  8. So... Robert Dealing, after his wife Eliza Caroline, dies in 1885 goes (by 1891 anyway) to live with his daughter Eliza who has married a painter, and has a family of 4, 2 and 4 months (by 1891);


1891 Census (re her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas):

1. No.11 Doods Road, Reigate (Foreign), Surrey;

2. Robert Penfold, head, married, age 37, insurance agent; employed, born Somersetshire, Glastonbury, Somersetshire;

3. Elizabeth C Penfold, wife, married, age 38, born Middlesex, London; 

4. Frank, son, age 15, single, auctioneer’s clerk, born Surrey, Nutfield;

5. Caroline Penfold, daughter, age 10, scholar, born Surrey, Redhill;

6. Herbert Penfold, son, age 7, scholar, born Surrey, Redhill;

7. Robert Penfold, son, age 4, scholar, born Surrey, Redhill;

1901 Census (re her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas):

1. 40 York Road, Reigate, Surrey;

2. Robert Penfold, head, married, age 48, insurance agent, worker, born Glastonbury, Somerset;

3. Elizabeth Penfold, wife, married, age 49, born London, Southwark;

4. Frank Penfold, son, single, age 25, estate agent’s clerk, born Surrey, Nutfield;

5. Robert Penfold, son, single, age 17, corn merchant’s clerk; born Surrey, Redhill;

6. Herbert Penfold, son, age 14, born Surrey, Redhill;

7. Rosalind Penfold, daughter, age 6, born Surrey, Reigate;


1901 Census (Robert Dealing living as a boarder):

  1. 15 Clarendon Road, Reigate Northern;
  2. Simeon Edwards, head, married, age 48, cellarman, worker, born Sussex, Horsham;
  3. Elizabeth Edwards, wife, married, age 45, born Sussex, Brighton;
  4. Robert Dealing, boarder, widower, age 68, Bill Poster, worker, born Kent, Tonbridge;
  5. So, .........  by 1901, Robert Dealing has, unsurprisingly not retired, and has become a ‘bill poster’ (which befits his age) and is lodging in Reigate, presumably as an arms-lengthe lodger – while his families pursue their own lives;


Marriage Certificate (of her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas):

Certified copy of an entry of marriage;

Robert Penfold and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas;


  1. 1874; No. 251;
  2. Marriage solemnized at: The Parish Church in the Parish of Reigate, in the county of Surrey;
  3. When married: December 5th (could be 15th), 1874;
  4. Name and surname: Robert Penfold and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas;
  5. Age: ‘full age’ (in both cases);
  6. Condition: Bachelor and Spinster;
  7. Rank or profession: Engine Cleaner, and blank;
  8. Residence at time of marriage: Groves Road, Reigate (in both cases);
  9. Fathers’ Names and Surnames: William Penfold, and John Lucas;
  10. Ranks or  professions of Fathers: ‘Labourer’ (looks like, but not very clear), and: Engine Driver; (NB: this ‘engine driver’ reference is an important link with Elizabeth Caroline’s father and Southwark);
  11. Married in the Parish Church, according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church, .... after Banns.... by me John M. Harrison (looks like), Vicar;
  12. This marriage was solemnized between us: Robert Penfold, and Elizabeth Caroline Lucas, in the presence of us: ‘Robert Dealing his (X) mark’, and Mary Jane Lucas;
  13. Certified to be a true copy... 25.4.2007.
  14. So (pba.23.12.07): the witnesses to the marriage were the bride’s stepfather and the bride’s sister (no, her sister was Jane) or cousin (presumably). Further investigations needed re Mary Jane Lucas.


(pba.5.5.07.ends.).



Children  (of her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas): 

Frank, born 1875, died 1959, aged 84, who married Rosa (Rose) Wells, and had children Vincent, Gwendolen, and Raymond;

Caroline/Carrie (named after her grandma Lucas), a milliner. No dates shown in the WPFT. Did not marry;

Robert/Bob (named after his father), who emigrated to New Zealand. No dates shown in the WPFT. It also says that, of the five children of Robert Penfold and his wife (nee Lucas), only Frank married. This is now known (through Helen Archer.Bowler’s research in New Zealand) to be not strictly correct, in that Bob married someone with a (to pba) Maori-sounding name; 

Bert, estate agent. No dates shown in the WPFT. Like Carrie and Roz, Bert did not marry.

‘Roz’ (presumably Rosalind), born 1895, died 1981, aged about 86, who, like Carrie and Bert, did not marry, and was an inland revenue accountant.


Occupation  (of her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas):  

  In the 1850s and probably in the nineteenth century generally, women didn’t have ‘occupations’. They were mothers and daughters. As regards Elizabeth Caroline Lucas’s husband, Robert Penfold, the WPFT says: “He had a modest job as insurance collector with The Prudential”.c.f. his son Frank’s father-in-law, William Wells  (junior), who was a horticulturalist with nurseries at Merstham;

However, within 7 years of marrying in 1874, ie in 1881, the Penfolds are the proprietors of a ‘coffee tavern’ (Thelpole Coffee Tavern) in ‘Lorne Villas’, Reigate, with two children  (ages 5 and 3) and a servant aged 17. 



Lived  (re her daughter Elizabeth Caroline Lucas):     

ECL’s birth certificate shows that she was born at 26 Pitt Street, Southwark, London, on 23.5.1851, presumably during or just before the Great Exhibition at the Crystal Palace. This address is quoted on the birth certificate as: ‘Pitt Street, St.George’s Road, Southwark’. Pitt Street has not survived as such, but St.George’s Road has, and extends from Westminster Bridge Road to the Elephant and Castle – see accompanying maps. 

Robert Penfold (junior, ie ‘Uncle Bob’ who emigrated to NZ)’s death certificate however clearly states: ‘Where born: Redhill, Surrey, England’. 

Marriage certificate shows that they were both living at ‘Groves Road, Reigate’ at the time of the wedding in 1874.

Likewise, the 1881 census (the first for these Penfolds as a married couple) shows:
a) Frank Penfold, age 5, born at ‘Nutfield’. So they were presumably living at Nutfield in 1876;
b) Caroline Penfold, daughter, age 3, born Surrey (looks like) ‘Kirsthill’. So, they must presumably have then moved so that two years later in 1878 they were living at ‘Kirsthill’ (can’t find in map index);
c)



Other biographical details:

Photographs of Robert Penfold at one or two family events exist.

The WPFT comments, the comment being written across and above both of the names of  Robert Penfold and his wife: “narrow-minded, strict baptists, she, afraid to die.” It adds: “He had a modest job as insurance collector with The Prudential”.

Sources of this data:

‘Wells/Penfold Family Tree (‘WPFT’), ‘Mk II’ by REA/GMA, which is marked: ‘Put together in Summer 2000 by R.Edward Archer from information supplied by Gwen Archer, nee Penfold.


Data from 1901 Census:


  1. Municipal Borough of Reigate, Surrey; North West ward; Address: 40 Yorke Road; 
  2. Robert Penfold, married, head of family, age 48, insurance agent, worker, born 'Somersetshire, Glastonbury'; 
  3. Elizabeth Penfold, married, wife, born London, Southwark; 
  4. Frank Penfold, son, single, 25, estate agent's clerk, born Surrey, Nutfield; 
  5. Robert Penfold, son, single, 17, corn merchant's clerk, born Surrey, Redhill; 
  6. Herbert  Penfold, son, born Surrey, Redhill; 
  7. Rosalind Penfold, daughter, age 6, born Surrey, Reigate; 
  8. Next door neighbours: at No. 42: family name Smith: head of house 'bricklayer's labourer', daughter: 'apprentice to tailoring'; 
  9. Other occupations noted in the same street: 'housemaid domestic', 'watchmaker jobber', 'baker journeyman', postman, gardener, dressmaker;



Dates of entry of data: 

06 and 07.12.06; 28.1.07 (census data);


1851 Census: (probably wrong. ECL’s father was ‘John’ according to ECL’s marriage certificate, not William):

  1. Parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark;
  2. No. 13 Layton’s Grove;
  3. William Lucas, head of family, married, age 23, Farrier, born London St. Andrew’s;
  4. Elizabeth Lucas, married, age 21, born Norwich;
  5. Elizabeth Lucas, daughter, born London ‘H’born’(?);
  6. Mary Ann Lucas, daughter, age 1 month, born Southwark, St. George;
  7. Probably wrong. Need to re-do, looking for John Lucas and Caroline Lucas aged 32 born Southwark. Daughter Elizabeth Caroline may/may not have been born by the time of the census, as she is shown as being aged 9 in 1861; AND YET: Re item 6 above, there is a ‘Mary A. Lucas’ aged 20 in 1871, and who would have been of age less than 1 year in 1851, as above, who appears in the 1871 census for Robert and Caroline Dealing in Reigate. Perhaps she is a niece and the above family in Southwark are aunt/uncle/nephews/nieces of Caroline and Robert? (pba.2.1.08).




qaa© Philip B Archer 2014